बहस जारी है- शाकाहार बनाम मांसाहार: कैंसर के बर-अक्स

इंद्रधनुष कैंसर को समर्पित एक ब्लॉग है। उस पर एक लेख 'शाकाहार बनाम मांसाहार: कैंसर के बर-अक्स' पर अनेक टिप्पणियां आईं, अच्छी बहस चल पड़ी। बहस ब्लॉग के मूल विषय कैंसर से हट कर हो तो भी उसमें रुकावट न आए, इस विचार से मैंने इसे यहां भी चेप दिया है ताकि और लोग भी इसमें शामिल हो सकें। अब तक आई सारी टिप्पणियां नीचे दे रही हूं। अब आप भी अपने विचार बेरोक यहां छापें।


swapandarshi said...
Thanks for information and for taking notice of my comment. Its very useful.

However, iron uptake is a major concern with veg diet, specially in women and also in the indian population which has problem of anemia. A large percentage of Anemia is caused by thalesemia.

Often the cause of anemia is never sorted out and the iron pill do more harm than good, and veg diet is not sufficient to provide iron uptake.

Secondly, veg diet is very high in carbohydrate and has less proteins, which leads to metabolic syndrome and insulin resistance. There are lots of studies in this respect as well.

What I get after listening to various opinions that,
a diet has to be diverse, and should not be limited on few things, it needs to be balanced. and the old pyramid of lots of carbohydrate base is completely out dated in the light of new findings.

There are fans f Atkins diet and south beach diet as well, which are leaned more on the nonveg side.

Anyway, all of us have to die some way or the other,
haa...haa
so one should also eat for the taste and to fulfill the desire as well.
not simple answers...
May 16, 2008 9:30 AM

आर. अनुराधा said...
स्वप्नदर्शी, जवाब सचमुच आसान नहीं है। और 'मरना सभी को है एक दिन...' वाली थ्योरी स्वीकार कर लेना भी सबसे आसान रास्ता है। लेकिन क्या जीवन सिर्फ यही है? आपने शाकाहार पर कुछ और दिलचस्प सवाल भी उठाए हैं। इन पर मुझे और पढ़ने की जरूरत है। चर्चा जारी रहे।
May 16, 2008 9:48 AM

Ugh-Non-Vegetarian-Meat-Eater-Flesh-Eater-Yuck! said...
स्वप्न दर्शी for lunch? क्योंकि मरना सभी को है?

No, it doesn't work the way Swapnadarshi presents it.

"A large percentage of Anemia is caused by thalesemia."

Thalassemia is an autosomal recessive genetic disorder. I.e. it is expressed in people when both parents have the recessive gene. It cannot be prevented by meat-eating, neither is it promoted by eating vegetables.

Meat is not a rich source of iron. Green vegetables like Spinach, Methi, etc., are a much richer source of iron. So if you're afraid of iron deficiency, eat more green veggies.

Per se a vegeterian diet is deficient in nothing. It depends on what you eat. If you eat more of wheat and potatoes you're taking a lot of carbohydrates.

A balanced meal has nothing to do with meat. You can include a little of pulses, fruits, and still have a diet that's cheaper than non-veg, healthier, and kinder.

And if you still think everyone has to die anyway... Think about my proposal of Swapnadarshi for lunch, and I am not talking about taking Swapnadarshi to lunch.

Ha! Ha! Indeed.
May 16, 2008 9:59 AM
Rajesh Roshan said...

It's nice to read Anuradha and Swapandarshi too. Go ahead. Inforamtive :)
May 16, 2008 10:11 AM

नितिन बागला said...
अच्छी चर्चा। वास्तव में शाकाहार में वे सभी तत्त्व मौजूद होते हैं जो हमारे शरीर को चाहिये, मसलन हरी सब्जियों में लौह तत्त्व तो मूंगफली और सोयाबीन में प्रोटीन प्रचुर मात्रा में होता है। इसके अलावा मांसाहार पर होने वाल खर्च और उसके दुष्प्रभाव कहीं ज्यादा हैं।

शाकाहार पर यह लेख भी देखें

http://dr-mahesh-parimal.blogspot.com/2008/05/blog-post_15.html
May 16, 2008 11:16 AM
Ghost Buster said...

Go Veg! Be Human!
May 16, 2008 11:51 AM

दुष्यंत said...
great, salaam to ur sprit
May 16, 2008 1:12 PM

Anonymous said...
@ swapndarshi
ur profile says u r in biotech field pl read smtg about human nutrition. esp pulses vs meat in terms of protein content and quality.
when it comes to understanding of nutrition and ecology a background in biology is very handy. maybe the fallowing Mayo Clinic's small webpage can be of help:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/print/vegetarian-diet/HQ01596/METHOD=print
May 16, 2008 5:44 PM

Udan Tashtari said...
जी, अच्छा विमर्श है. आभार.
May 16, 2008 5:54 PM

आर. अनुराधा said...
मुद्दा यह था कि खान-पान का कैंसर से क्या संबंध है। और वैज्ञानिक बार-बार साबित कर रहे हैं कि मांसाहार कैंसर के लिए मुफीद माहौल बनाने में सक्रिय भूमिका निभाता है। दूसरी तरफ घास-पात में बहुत कुछ है जो कैंसर को रोकता है। और फिर, मांसाहार में कुछ भी अतिरिक्त अच्छा नहीं है (शायद स्वाद के अलावा) जो शाकाहार में नहीं मिल सकता। वैसे ब्रिटेन के भौतिकविज्ञानी ऐलन कालवर्ट मांसाहार से नुकसान का एक और ऐंगल सुझाते हैं- ग्लोबल वार्मिंग! दिलचस्पी हो तो देखें- http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/07/cut_global_warm.php
May 17, 2008 7:41 PM

swapandarshi said...
This post has been removed by the author.
May 18, 2008 12:55 AM

swapandarshi said...
This post has been removed by the author.
May 18, 2008 1:26 AM

swapandarshi said...

I hope we are not discussing personal eating habbits here and taking sides becoz of our narrow personal perspectives.
I am here, to understand and contribute about the various aspects associated with the diets. Most creative people do experiments with Dietetics,
including Gandhiji, who spent a significant part of his autobiography and life doing this. I appreciate very much that Anuradha is doing a good job from the perspective of cancer.


In the first comment, I expressed a casual opinion (that we have ti die one or the other way)becoz as a person I can not determine absolutely what to eat, it depends on my pocket and availability of the desired product in the market, my genetic disposition and taste which was more or less got established when I was a child myself.

I can only carefully choose what is available. It does not mean that we behave in irresponsible manner. But rather, we as a individual , live in a society and are bound by the larger frame.


With that respect, when I am in india, I can not enjoy, fresh salad. the reason for that is often "sewage or human-animal waste" is not separated from the fields and harbors nematode cysts.

so the thing is that "ek museebat se bacho to doosaree aa gheratee hai". so koee ek museebat to chunanee hee hai.

So as a human being, not as a scientist, I have a philosophy, that if any human being can eat a particular food, it is good enough for me too, if I can not change possibility
for others.

The second thing is, if somebody has invested love and efforts for preparing a food for me, then also I will eat and sometimes, my health/preference is less important than a good friendship, or human relation.

The most important is, I will never show disgust for any food,



As per iron and veg diet......


There are two issues with iron,
1- availability of iron
2-bioavailability of iron, means that body can absorb iron from the diet.

although veg do have iron but solely, veg diet does not help iron absorption, its a known fact.
second the pulses rich in protein have something called "phytase" which reduces ability of our body to absorb iron.

see http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/123/5/940

Among dietary factors, only ascorbic acid (Carlson
and Miller 1983, Gillooly et al. 1984, Hallberg and
Rossander 1982, Morck et al. 1982, Rossander et al. 1979) and meat (Björn-Rassmussen and Hallberg 1979, Cook and Monsen 1976, Gordon and Godber 1989, Hurrell et al. 1988, Layrisse et al. 1969) consistently enhance iron bioavailability.


Meat is both a source of highly bioavailable iron (heme) and has the ability to enhance both heme and nonheme iron absorption
(Kane and Miller 1984).

Recent survey also show that the 56-60% of women and children are anemic and have iron deficiency in india, including the middle class. I believe that apart from the economic factors,
-food habbit, specially the veg habbit
-thalessemia
are culprit.

When I see the demographic chart of thalessimia, it is prevalent in India, and yet most doctors hardly do anything to test if the anemia is due to the thalesemia or just becoz of the diet. So most people end with iron tabs.

Lets go back to thalesemia, yes it is a recessive genetic allelic condition, but even heterozygous parents who are not anemic, can have a thelesemic child suffering from major thalesemia, or a person with heterozygous condition can have minor thalasemia. AND A GOOD FRACTION OF INDIAN SOCIETY IS THALESEMIC.
This condition, the genetic mutations in beta globulin chain is indeed has evolved in areas which have high maleria.
And with this respect, one has to think about the iron absorption and the bioavailability of iron. Iron tabs here are not solution.

meat will not cure thalessemia, but it may help higher absorbtion of iron, which can be advantageous in such condition, and the from a meat diet, the iron is in heame form and will have longer availability within the body.

I agree that food chain is very much contaminated and animals will have more concentration in their bodies than the vegies.

However, fruits and vegies are also not safe from chemical. They are full of pesticides as well and often its not possible to eat without peeling, the part which has good anti-oxidants.
Couple of years ago I was talking to a apple grower and he told me that with the advent of new "water-resistant" pesticides, they save money and time to spray pesticide again and again.
vegies and fruits are so full of these chemicals that even if you wash with the water several time, its difficult to get rid of them.

In America, you get a special soap to wash fruits and vegies.

Well, organic food is the best option, the meat can be free of hormones and antibiotics and veg free of chemicals.
but it is limited and it is not possible to feed the world population with organic food either.

Apart from the scientific reasons there are several issues associated with food safety and food choice.

Most people prefer veg meal in India because of religious reason than scientific ones. And in most veg household, men are free to eat outside and do so.
so the women are left veg.

The second aspect is about the public education, and law and order system, and adulteration so prevalent in indian market. Do we really have a choice if bazaar is not forced to label things honestly. Where do we have such possibilities in India?
Where are active consumer forums? we are just a dump site?

We have pesticides in the market. any body can purchase, but where is the infra-structure or support which can give the farmer training for pesticide application? Ideally, the pesticide applicator needs training, equippments, and special costume. and the area under pesticide application should not have people marching unwarranted.

But Indian farmers only know that pesticide works, they do not know how much is enough? how to use?

these pesticides have great potential to cause cancer and other diseases.
May 18, 2008 7:48 AM

आर. अनुराधा said...
Sathiyo, yah bahas to dilchasp hai aur lambi chalane ki kuvvat rakhatee hai. To kyon na ise reject maal(rejectmaal.blogspot.com) par jaari rakhen? Main ise wahaan post kar rahee hun. AAp sab wahan amantrit hain.
May 19, 2008 10:52 AM